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Joined: Oct 27, 2004 Posts: 237 Location: Dunsterdam
Fare ye well Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 10:29 am
Unfortunatelly what you say Chris is absolutelly correct. In the past the ALCP has been plagued by imcompetence. However it is important to remember that the Aotearoa Legalise Cannabis Party is the political wing on the CLR movement in NZ and is therefore open to all pot smokers. An absolute shit load of effort has gone into simply to get the party as far as it has gotten. The ALCP is your party, if you want to see improvements you have to take the initiative yourself and start running a local branch yourself. No one is preventing anyone else bulstering the party, dont critisise the party, make the party stronger. We have every chance of getting into parliament if you do.
I think it is HIGH time people realise that posting on this forum is not actually the same as getting out into the real world and futhuring the cause. _________________ Tick the Leaf - www.alcp.org.nz
Welcome to Dunsterdam - www.otagonorml.com
I think it is HIGH time people realise that posting on this forum is not actually the same as getting out into the real world and futhuring the cause.
About as effective as sitting around a tree in an enclosed courtyard smoking weed, wouldn't you say. _________________ A pain free day the marijuana way.
If I was an anti cannabis , prohibitionists hell bent on ensuring cannabis remained socially and legally unacceptable ,( and for 30 yrs I was) I would be grinning from ear to ear as I read the NORML forum of late.
Even the most skilled PR team could not have planned such a divide and rule to stuff up the CLR movement if they had tried..
I know years of banging heads on brick walls leads to frustration .. but lets not take it out on each other.. We have a window of opportunity pre election , its not very big so lets try and make the most of it..
Joined: Nov 16, 2005 Posts: 437 Location: New Zealand
Posted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 3:56 am
Tony wrote:
If I was an anti cannabis , prohibitionists hell bent on ensuring cannabis remained socially and legally unacceptable ,( and for 30 yrs I was) I would be grinning from ear to ear as I read the NORML forum of late.
Even the most skilled PR team could not have planned such a divide and rule to stuff up the CLR movement if they had tried..
I know years of banging heads on brick walls leads to frustration .. but lets not take it out on each other.. We have a window of opportunity pre election , its not very big so lets try and make the most of it..
tony
I think it's more important for people concerned with cannabis law reform to be clear on what the issues (and bottom lines) are, than try to present an artifical united front. This is merely a refining process that we are going through.
Last edited by Paul13 on Tue Sep 16, 2008 2:10 am, edited 1 time in total
u guys are fuken stupid if you dont see the continual ongoing media generated by otago norml's civil disobedience campaign, including TV1, TV3, NZ Herald, numerous front pages on ODT.
We now have acohol company (Tui) doing our bidding.
Joined: Feb 28, 2003 Posts: 212 Location: Auckland, Aotearoa
Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2008 10:01 am
gotta love that tui billboard... and gotta love that new Otago Norml logo too!
Tony wrote:
Quote:
The only criticism I have regards your press releases Chris is the lack of them recently.
Fair comment. The problem for me is finding the time to write them. The problem for Norml is that everything is my job unless I find someone else to do it. That's how it feels anyway. People come to me all the time with their latest great idea, but it's always an idea for me to do, rather than for them to do. I can't do everything! It's a bit like how people say to me just about every day "when are you gonna make it legal?". Well, duh! It's not up to me, and it will never be legal if everyone thinks they can wait for me (or "Norml") to do it for them.
I do get offers of "help" but they have not, to date, actually happened when needed. Press releases have to be timely (most important), relevant, and interesting. It would be great if there was a pool of good writers who could write press releases as they are needed, or write a whole lot of drafts in advance that can be pulled out and updated as needed. But it needs to be timely - as in, can you get a release drafted within one hour, or even better, 10 minutes? What is useless or next to useless is me having to find someone, explain to them what the points should be, chase them up, eventually get something out of them a few days or weeks later, then have to edit it again to fix grammar etc, then eventually put it out too late for the media to care.
Anyway... this thread is not "divide and rule", it's "clearing the air" with some healthy and robust discussion. Like I said previously, "The trick is to turn our energies where it matters - prohibitionists and their allies, not attacking each other..."
Chris _________________ "when injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty!"
Very well put Chris, it is always the dedicated few that do the work, the rest just talk about it or can only criticize. A good example of this is 'Maryjane' (our Flagship). People rave about how good it is and it should be doing this, or that, but until she has a COF, she's not doing anything. In my view she needs to be back in Queen St every Fri/Sat night. The only major thing 'Maryjane' needs is her injectors serviced. So we need, either a diesel mechanic or, the funds, approx $1500. Now is the time for a lot more action, we need to make a lot more noise pre-election So people, if you believe CLR is vital, dig deep, Your help no matter how small will be much appreciated.
Joined: Feb 19, 2004 Posts: 1344 Location: Nelson area
postscript Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2008 12:48 pm
I have just read all the responses to my comments.
I have learnt from the criticism, and have been humbled by the words of support and encouragement.
I have no problem with "constructive" criticism, even welcome it, as my "written prose" can be found wanting. I have never in the past been too worried about grammar, or will in the future (I'll leave that to the word nazis).
Needing PERFECTLY worded press releases is the sign of lazy editors and reporters - allowing them just to cut and past rather than apply their craft. I have seen atrociously worded "press releases" go out and attract the media's attention. If they can see an angle or it fits within their agenda, they will pursue the story.
Jason Baker-Sherman, if he was just offering "constructive criticism" would have said something like "Hey Steveoh, there seems to be a typo" I know that conclusion was attributed to the 2001 enquiry, not the way he did it. If he had the communicational skills maybe Jason would be the first person who I'd approach to check (as press releases need to be put out quickly.
Im sorry if people disagree, but I believe that its better to be seen responding to related issues irrespective of the level of fucken spelling I wonder how many reporters get their work sent back to them from sub-editors for common typo's? Hell if you are a regular reader of the dailies you see the grammar/spelling mistakes as well as other inaccuracies - so get off my back. I'm just a simple/normal New Zealander who sees the injustice that the Misuse of Drug's Act has on individuals lives.
I see that Budbeard has left this forum as well.
Budbeard wrote:
Having reached the 200 post mark, I think it is High Time i retire from this forum. I bid you gentlemen (an occasional lady) adieu.
Both he and I are focusing on the up-coming election, and I can understand his frustration on his view of non-action. He is correct ALCP is the "political wing" of cannabis law reform. If you are not pleased with the direction or level of activity. Then get active.
We can stay and hide on this forum or get out and try our hardest to convince people (non-smokers) the benefits of voting for a failed law that's harming people we know in our communities. ALCP can not sit back and expect that the "good old smoker" will step forward and vote to protect themselves.
I have been on this forum since the beginning of 2004 In that time I have had disagreements with past-posters, have confronted posters who had a hidden agendas. And have been on the sharp edge of Jason's mood-swings. I have also had breaks from this forum to avoid "burn out". But I have never, in my memory (practising politispeak, getting ready to be a M.P.) as Paula claims, done this before. And would appreciate you (or get Jason to do it) finding where I have done the, "I'm off.....atitude.
Paula wrote:
I am struggling ever so slightly at understanding steveoh's 'I'm off somewhere else' attitude because he has espoused the same on several occasions.
I was convinced by some one to continue posting my letters as they are a source of inspiration to people, and since it has received over 54,000 hits. - Save your fingers Jason I'm posting an old response
potshots wrote:
hate to burst your bubble steveoh but that's just not true: 43,000 people have not been reading this thread. All you can say is that the thread has been accessed 43,000 times since it was started. On those occasions, only one post may have been read or the whole thread may have read. On the other hand, nothing may have been read.
After the election I will, after some consideration re-enter the NORML forum.
I wish you all the best with the "discussion" of cannabis and all it's qualities and it's legality. We will continue to do our best to help New Zealand remove cannabis from the Misuse of Drugs Act. Allowing you all to smoke your herb in peace.
Steven Wilkinson
ALCP candidate for West Coast/\Tasman. _________________ Regulation will set cannabis free
Freedom's just a TICK away - VOTE Aotearoa Legalise Cannabis Party 2008 then everyone's a winner
Contact me: steven@alcp.org.nz Party website http://www.alcp.org.nz
The only criticism I have regards your press releases Chris is the lack of them recently.
Fair comment. The problem for me is finding the time to write them. The problem for Norml is that everything is my job unless I find someone else to do it. That's how it feels anyway.
Chris
Chris , was not a dig at your work ethics , How the hell you have found the personal resources to carry the fight on in the face of all the frustrations is beyond me.Most others have given up.
I still use 10 /15 yr old press releases you did as resource material .
Your take and ability to counter cannabis propaganda is second to none.
I was more expressing frustration at the frustrations you encounter.
Not that I would discourage you to find the time and enthusiasm .
Could you possibly ask for contribution on topical matters , one's one could cut and paste or extract from and revamp ..Play the editor and create the release.??
Joined: Dec 01, 2003 Posts: 2996 Location: Christchurch, NZ
Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2008 6:02 pm
Steveoh, again, this is what I said:
Quote:
Both steveoh and potshots have energy for CLR, though in different ways. In my (at the moment NOT VERY humble) opinion there is a need for all types of support for CLR, and all should be valued as equally as possible. I see here the yin/yang appears to have been flushed down the bog.
I am struggling ever so slightly at understanding steveoh's 'I'm off somewhere else' attitude because he has espoused the same on several occasions. Likewise am struggling with potshots' eternal replies to fellow activists that - while they are constructive - are occasionally simultaneously quite deconstructive.
You should be able to see that what I said in the preceding paragraph (in bold) is what I was referring to as 'the same'. I have seen you write that here before.
Geddit now ?
Joined: Dec 01, 2003 Posts: 2996 Location: Christchurch, NZ
Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2008 6:09 pm
Quote:
pedantic bleating armchair activists.
Haven't seen a media release or news of what you're doing these days either Duncan.
In all my travels around town talking with people I have never inspired someone to actually get in and help. There have been offers, but only one with actions, he shows up on JDay to help. I daresay its the same for others. Lucky I have damn thick skin.
As we've already gone over ad nauseum elsewhere; with very few exceptions the only cannabis activists are those who've been already busted. That anyone really expects to find them here is funny. Even when we have a bunch of activists together, sometimes its like trying to herd cats
Believe or not, I'm actually quite flattered to be the subject of your enmity because I can't understand why you are feeling so threatened by my ideas and words if I'm such a negative try-hard loser and inactivist.
Anyway, contrary to what you both believe, I know that I've written enough interesting, positive and helpful things on the Norml forums to justify my participation, not that I even have to do that. I may not be perfect but I am prepared to live & learn.
And, of course, it's a waste of my time to have to answer your unwarranted personal attacks as well as a waste of your own time making them.
So somewhat reluctantly, here I go again.....
steveoh wrote:
I have just read all the responses to my comments.
I have learnt from the criticism, and have been humbled by the words of support and encouragement.....
steveoh,
I've read the rest of your post a few times now and I can find little evidence of any humility on your part. Instead your comments come across as arrogant and patronising. Do you know what "humble" means? According to my dictionary, humble means "having or showing a low estimate of one's own importance."
E.g. steveoh wrote:
I have no problem with "constructive" criticism, even welcome it, as my "written prose" can be found wanting. I have never in the past been too worried about grammar, or will in the future (I'll leave that to the word nazis).
Needing PERFECTLY worded press releases is the sign of lazy editors and reporters - allowing them just to cut and past rather than apply their craft. I have seen atrociously worded "press releases" go out and attract the media's attention. If they can see an angle or it fits within their agenda, they will pursue the story.
The question to ask is: "Do I want my press release to be published or not?" If the answer is "yes" then surely it is incumbent on the author to try and make the press release as editor-friendly as possible in order to maximise the chance of it getting published.
Plus it's unlikely that the "word Nazis" will help you at all with that kind of attitude.
steveoh also wrote:
Jason Baker-Sherman, if he was just offering "constructive criticism" would have said something like "Hey Steveoh, there seems to be a typo" I know that conclusion was attributed to the 2001 enquiry, not the way he did it. If he had the communicational skills maybe Jason would be the first person who I'd approach to check (as press releases need to be put out quickly.
steveoh,
What are you hoping to achieve by your personal attacks on me? If you are hoping that your nastiness will silence me then you should think again.
IMO you're actually revealing far more about the sort of person you are rather than anything else.
I worked out some time ago that you are hyper-sensitive to any kind of "criticism", be it constructive or otherwise. Your sole focus is the election of the ALCP and you appear to have little or no time for any other approaches to CLR.
We're also not talking about a few typos or a bit of bad grammar, we're talking about simple factual errors and even a misquote.
I had to at your comment that I lack "communicational skills." How ironic!
Let's have a look at an example so we can compare our communication skills.
Do you remember on the 18th March 2008 the editor of the Nelson Mail deciding not to print our LTEs in response to Mr Kerby?
Despite the facts that a) the Nelson Mail had printed one of your LTEs on March 15th, b) you had submitted another LTE to them on the 17th and c) the editor wrote to you with his reasons why he was declining to publish your March 18th LTE ["This is to advise that I'm not accepting any more letters from Mr Kerby attacking you, or your responses. As it stands your exchange has already taken up a lot of space in the letters column and you're both repeating the same arguments. Mr Kerby takes a more insulting tone but your replies simply provoke him into further attacks. The letter received from you this morning won't be published, and nor will the one from Mr Kerby also received this morning"], your response was simply
Quote:
Maybe they don't like the fact that I'm pushing an alturnative to prohibition REGULATION
Compare that to my response.
After getting over the initial disappointment of having written a letter that wouldn't be used, I decided to listen to what the editor was saying and devise a plan around that. So when my original LTE was also rejected, I changed the parts that made my LTE personal and resubmitted it with a cover letter saying basically that I could see where the editor was coming from and so I'd rewritten my LTE to suit. Was it OK now?
The result? My LTE got printed (although I think the editor was a little reluctant for fear it might set Mr Kerby off again) and Tony even said that he thought "the revised version was even more effective than the original."
The lessons to be learnt? Don't take things personally and don't make things personal. Be reasonable with expectations (ie don't take the attitude that the media has to print our LTEs & press releases or even be balanced) and be reason-able (ie able to reason with the editor) in order to get things published.
[BTW I probably increased the number of views of the ATTENTION: READ THE LETTERS thread by at least 10 doing research for the above. The whole story is on page 23 if anyone is interested.]
Duncan wrote:
Hi Chris, I'll hand in my 'warrant' as a moderator if you feel the line has been crossed.
It's easier to be a critic than an activist- I rate Steveohs work ethic and will back him up big time against pedantic bleating armchair activists.
Duncan,
You really should have actually listened to what Chris was saying before because you've just made the same faux pas (defn: tactless blunder) again.
Funny thing is I can remember helping you a lot when you were in charge of OU Norml (we were OU Norml back then). Your "right-hand man" was how you described me on at least a few occasions.
I can also remember asking if you would help me by proof reading my 2001 HSC submission but you said no because you were too busy and there was no point anyway as it was too long & wouldn't be read.
Well you were right in a way but not in the way that you meant. The select committee read my submission but no-one else could because it was made secret! Until now, that is.
Anyway, steveoh and Duncan, one unfortunate consequence of your negativity towards me is that it seems to be spreading to others and is making them say insulting, yet silly, things too.
E.g. BudBeard wrote:
Unfortunatelly what you say Chris is absolutelly correct. In the past the ALCP has been plagued by imcompetence.
BudBeard,
I've just re-read Chris' post and he said absolutely nothing about the ALCP being plagued by incompetence in the past.
In fact, he seems to be agreeing with me!
The odd thing is that the core of the ALCP for this election is essentially the same people that made up the core of the ALCP last election with a few newcomers such as yourself, so it seems to me like you're actually accusing your current colleagues of being incompetent.
And aren't we talking about a recent press release?
Personally, I found the Chch ALCP crew to be very competent and helpful when I stood for the ALCP last election.
Finally, paula wrote:
In all my travels around town talking with people I have never inspired someone to actually get in and help. There have been offers, but only one with actions, he shows up on JDay to help. I daresay its the same for others. Lucky I have damn thick skin.
Yes it is and yes you are lucky.
I've refereed some of my son's soccer games (Under-14) this season and many of those were hide-thickening experiences.
and wrote:
As we've already gone over ad nauseum elsewhere; with very few exceptions the only cannabis activists are those who've been already busted. That anyone really expects to find them here is funny. Even when we have a bunch of activists together, sometimes its like trying to herd cats
I'm one of those exceptions. Maybe that's my problem.
Good analogy, herding cats. Maybe we need a lion tamer.
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I have just read all the responses to my comments.
I have seen atrociously worded "press releases" go out and attract the media's attention. If they can see an angle or it fits within their agenda, they will pursue the story.
