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Joined: Dec 01, 2003 Posts: 2996 Location: Christchurch, NZ
Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 1:11 am
Quote:
Best part is people are gonna read this and get annoyed at me, because they feel that perfect spelling and grammar is a stupid idea. They might feel that what we really need is dreamers and visionaries and people who are prepared to fight for what they believe in, and that grammar is a waste of precious time, which is only going to illustrate my entire point.
Well everyones right
Re the factual inaccuracies you should also be looking at several other people. Yes, steveoh copied it to others for quick comment first. I looked at the spelling and grammar and completely missed those inaccuracies.
It should also be pointed out that the media release had a much faster gestation than most other media releases. Lesson learned. Go back to tougher scrutiny of first drafts, and preferably earlier in the day because we first saw it at 9.30pm.
Damn good on steveoh for trying to be topical though, and heres hoping he gets over it fast and comes back.
And yes, potshots you could be a bit more circumspect wording your criticisms "I would like to point out . . ." I've a good mind to get you put onto the media release review list.
Re: wreckers and haters. Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 1:14 am
Paul13 - I agree with you about how the Greens blew it. I am not familiar with what takes place within the party, but you have to wonder if Nandoor leaving had something to do with perhaps him feeling at odds with the 'inner sanctum' of policies and lack thereof. Maybe it is harsh, but the Greens seemed to have become something like femi-nazi's. Certainly the entire cannabis issue is a non-issue as far as the Greens are concerned. And medical use is hardly addressing the main issue either since most users of cannabis are not medical users! Like how many medical users are there any way? A few hundred? How about someone address the 'hundreds of thousands' of smokers issue? The Greens I think...were worried they could be seen as being the 'cannabis party'.
Will be interesting to see if, and/or to what extent, the Greens having shafted so many of their constituents...will have on their number of votes at the next election.
Potshots - While you have a way with words, 'sometimes' you perhaps place too much emphasis on their structure rather than the content. You may have a signifigant impact on some people who do read your letters, but...there is always a 'but'...we have discussed at length why a few paragraphs only, 'can' be 'ineffective', and at times may even confuse the issue, and 'may' even reinforce prohibition. I certainly do not wish to go back into all the reasons why I consider the LTE's...'blah'. And yes, tis hard to criticise without discourageing altogether - but like you I believe that criticism is valuable to progress.
I have read though(not from you) many LTE supposedly supporting cannabis law reform which could have only hindered the cause - and I think that on ocassion, editors and their lackies, and prohibitionists, write LTE which supposedly support law reform but which are simply there to discredit law reform. Just like on this site you will get posts from people who are here to simple sow dissent and division...infiltrators and corrupters of truth.
Where as Steveoh doesn't have the structure down pat, but does indeed tell it like it is without tip-toeing through the tulips. I like what Steveoh has to say(fuck the PC bullshit)...I am not seeking yet another 'Close-down'(bullshit) or 'Campbell-dead'...or 'fair-go for prohibition'. Like Steveoh, I think the media in NZ is 'pathetic' in terms of newspapers and TV news - they are half the reason prohibiton continues. You want example of how the media is to blame for so much - look at some of the articles in the British 'Independant' regards Iraqs supposed WOMD before the 'illegal' invasion. Independant? Independant of what? Independant of intellect and reason. Dependant on 'bullshit!' One million dead Iraqis and a country decimated with American installed puppets. Just like how Fox news, the American propaganda arm did, the Independant were partially responsible for all that death, destruction and suffering. Prosecutions are in order. Let us get our priorities straight. For if they can do what they did to Iraq - despite all that opposition(protests world wide), just how hard do you think it would be for them to maintain prohibition? Not very - unless they are held to account for their fascism.
All this foreign ownership of the media is much to do with prohibition(just like Telecum), but also a clear lack of concience and concientiousness(just like Telecon) aswell as simple ignorance of the wider issues beyond the Telecum-esque sponsorship which facilitates the continued 'extortion' where broad-band is concerned for example. The newspapers and TV media in NZ facilitate the dissemination of blatant propaganda where cannabis is concerned. They help maintain prohibition and prevent the issue being discussed seriously.
They(TVNZ etc) can't even do a decent programme on the state of broad-band so what hope is there for something as taboo as cannabis legalisation? You simply DO NOT see, any more, any debates on cannabis, or any programmes which look at the issue with any depth what so ever. A few sound bytes here and there is like a LTE - read once..in one ear and out the other.
Like TVNZ...the lot of them, still....cannot....pronounce 'methamphetamine!' What is it with this exceedingly poor skills of comprehension from the people who should set an example?!!! 'P-head?' WTF is that? Wendy, Simon and the rest of you 'twats'...learn to speak properly...stop speaking like street kids on meth'. Either call it methamphetamine, or start calling alcohol, 'booze/grog' and cannabis, 'dope/whacky-baccy' and cocaine, 'Columbian-white/marching powder' and heroin, 'China-white'.
The issue itself, isn't even as much to do with cannabis as it is to do with justice. As I have mentioned in some recent posts - the state is engaged in 'abuse and mollestation' of cannabis fiends, and has breached the assumed contract they have between state and citezen. At some stage, prosecutions, of one form or another, should take place in the absense of the persuit of justice through traditional avenues. The prosecutors, lawyers and judges. Those elements at the coal face who process 'people' like cattle and brand them for life. The simple fact of the matter is...NZ does not want, or need, the American cannabis laws here! And any people who think they can impliment false and corrupt American laws on Kiwi's should think twice.
I will be interested to see how ALCP does at this election(and I will be voting for ALCP)...but if they do not get any where...I will also be interested to see if ALCP will change some things(policies) after the election. Or if ALCP will decide to just keep on doing what they know doesn't work. You know...ALCP could still introduce more expanisve policies....not could,...'should'.....there's still time.
Oh yeah...2003 inquiry....or the other 'select comitte'...they are 'past'..they are 'old'...they were as 'worthless' then as they are now.
Constructive criticism is frowned upon because it's only constructive in the mind of the person who's delivering it. When someone says to me "In my opinion this would be better," all I hear is "U R DOEN IT RONG." I think it's human nature. We all think our way is best because it's what we're used to.
For instance if I were to say that even though you're likely to be right, pointing out every error that someone makes in detail is unnecessary, you might be inclined to get defensive about it because you were only trying to help. That's not how I feel; I'm merely using it as an example.
At the risk of appearing defensive, I feel that is necessary for ALCP press releases to be as factually accurate as possible. After all, even small, seemingly unimportant errors can cast doubt on the credibility of the rest of the ALCP's message.
The funny things is that I'm now used to there being a backlash when I am critical of other CLRers and so it doesn't really surprise me too much any more. I don't enjoy it but I've learnt to live with it.
In the past I have tried remaining silent instead of expressing my viewpoint but that wasn't successful as I found that I only ended up regretting not speaking up.
As I said before, I'd rather point out an error and be seen as pedantic than see the error but remain silent out of fear that others might get upset and dislike me for being critical (the softcock option).
Paul13 wrote:
But I think that as long as the meaning is decipherable then its more important that the meaning is accurate than it is that the grammer, spelling, presentation etc be at a high level - though of course that stuff is appreciated and makes the arguments more "acceptable". Also I think that if the guts of the material is accurate then small errors shouldn't be dwelt on too much.
I pretty much agree with you there, Paul13. That's why I didn't mention the grammar as it seemed OK this time - certainly better than steveoh's usual standard of grammar (& spelling too).
No matter how many times something is proof read, there is usually one or two small errors that somehow sneak through the editing process unnoticed.
I also believe that press releases need to be crystal clear in their meaning rather than just "decipherable" because although we CLRers might understand them, the ALCP's press releases are designed to get a point across to the less-aware general public and that needs a clear, concise message.
paula wrote:
And yes, potshots you could be a bit more circumspect wording your criticisms "I would like to point out . . ." I've a good mind to get you put onto the media release review list.
As I said before paula, I regretted using that phrase and probably should have changed it when I had the chance. However, I wasn't 100% sure if I had actually used the word "like" and only suspected that I had. Anyway, it bugged me for a while but eventually I forgot about it until reminded again by steveoh's and Duncan's replies.
If you do ever need any help reviewing press releases then feel free to ask as I seem to have a knack for "reviewing" things!
Neuron wrote:
Potshots - While you have a way with words, 'sometimes' you perhaps place too much emphasis on their structure rather than the content. You may have a signifigant impact on some people who do read your letters, but...there is always a 'but'...we have discussed at length why a few paragraphs only, 'can' be 'ineffective', and at times may even confuse the issue, and 'may' even reinforce prohibition. I certainly do not wish to go back into all the reasons why I consider the LTE's...'blah'. And yes, tis hard to criticise without discourageing altogether - but like you I believe that criticism is valuable to progress.
Nor do I want to go into the reasons why I think you are mistaken in your view about the usefulness of LTEs. However, I know that they are very effective tool in advancing cannabis law reform.
Neuron also wrote:
I have read though(not from you) many LTE supposedly supporting cannabis law reform which could have only hindered the cause - and I think that on ocassion, editors and their lackies, and prohibitionists, write LTE which supposedly support law reform but which are simply there to discredit law reform. Just like on this site you will get posts from people who are here to simple sow dissent and division...infiltrators and corrupters of truth.
Can't say that I've seen any pro-cannabis LTEs that have hindered the cause and I doubt seriously doubt that an editor would write a bad pro-CLR LTE just to discredit law reform.
And Neuron wrote:
I will be interested to see how ALCP does at this election(and I will be voting for ALCP)...but if they do not get any where...I will also be interested to see if ALCP will change some things(policies) after the election. Or if ALCP will decide to just keep on doing what they know doesn't work. You know...ALCP could still introduce more expanisve policies....not could,...'should'.....there's still time.
My own feeling is that the ALCP should make advertising cannabis law reform its primary objective and downplay the we-will-change-the-law-once-elected angle because it is very unlikely to happen and only hamstrings the party while simultaneously undermining its credibility.
Finally Neuron wrote:
Oh yeah...2003 inquiry....or the other 'select comitte'...they are 'past'..they are 'old'...they were as 'worthless' then as they are now.
While the 2003 HSC inquiry was a disappointment, it does contain some information that could be of use to the CLR movement.
Last edited by potshots on Fri Aug 29, 2008 10:26 am, edited 1 time in total
Joined: Nov 16, 2005 Posts: 437 Location: New Zealand
Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 10:24 am
Neuron also wrote:
I have read though(not from you) many LTE supposedly supporting cannabis law reform which could have only hindered the cause - and I think that on ocassion, editors and their lackies, and prohibitionists, write LTE which supposedly support law reform but which are simply there to discredit law reform. Just like on this site you will get posts from people who are here to simple sow dissent and division...infiltrators and corrupters of truth.
Neuron, I half suspect the real issue you have with Letters to the Editor is the 150-250 word limit!
Potshot , I was suggesting being anal was at times an asset not a liability .
Budbeard , am sure the ALCP site will post some good stuff , but feel the NORML forum may well be a more effective initial resource for many.
We need to work together , a three month( maybe less ) window exists to promote CLR, post election outcomes could well put us back into the wilderness ..
The time is right for maximum effort re LTE , press releases , and what ever can get the message out there .
Things are not as they seem , the Winston stuff is just the tip of the tit for tat exposure .When the shit starts to hit the fan and the public see the full extend of vested interests corrupting our politician's it could get interesting.
We have a window of opportunity , some of the exposures will have relevance for CLR .
Lets not start bickering and undermining the potential we have at this time..
I wonder if Phil Goff can wipe the smile off his face .. His dream to be Leader has once again gained legs . Gosh one could even speculate he took on board the lesson of his past when some skilled pre election skullduggery by some of his own team had him replaced as MP for Mt Roskill by a village idiot . Does he want to be leader enough to have played a skilled an well thought out hand.
Leader of the opposition for 3 yrs ..
and Winston gone taking Helen along for the ride..
Once the media let rip with what they have, MP's start throwing retalitory shit at each other.. Just what Winston is holding over Helen and others in the labour party , let alone the stuff him and others have on some of the Nats ...Currently threats behind closed doors , but much of it already out and in the hands of others..
We could well see the biggest protest vote potential ever..
Those out there fronting the ALCP can only be supported by the efforts of those writing , informing and the like. Whatever it takes to get the message out there ..
Cannabis will never be a major voter motivation in its own right , but as a protest platform and a way to show displeasure with current politics it could gain considerably.
Lets work together , divided we could well miss the bus..again.
Joined: Nov 16, 2005 Posts: 437 Location: New Zealand
Re: wreckers and haters. Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 10:41 am
Neuron wrote:
Paul13 - I agree with you about how the Greens blew it. I am not familiar with what takes place within the party, but you have to wonder if Nandoor leaving had something to do with perhaps him feeling at odds with the 'inner sanctum' of policies and lack thereof. Maybe it is harsh, but the Greens seemed to have become something like femi-nazi's. Certainly the entire cannabis issue is a non-issue as far as the Greens are concerned. And medical use is hardly addressing the main issue either since most users of cannabis are not medical users! Like how many medical users are there any way? A few hundred? How about someone address the 'hundreds of thousands' of smokers issue? The Greens I think...were worried they could be seen as being the 'cannabis party'.
Will be interesting to see if, and/or to what extent, the Greens having shafted so many of their constituents...will have on their number of votes at the next election....
I did write that that is history now. I must point out that Green MP Metiria Turei has been a staunch and public supporter of the efforts that Otago NORML have been making at the campus. In fact was she was present when Abe was arrested and interfered to the degree that a poolice wrote in evidence "A short Maori woman claiming to be an MP said she knew more about the law than I did.."
Re: wrong wrong so wrong. Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 10:44 am
Duncan wrote:
No. You were wrong potshots. Try to prove otherwise and I'll prove you wrong again.
Feel free to write another 2000 word prat rant if you wish, but you were wrong, you are wrong, you are the hysterical old nana of the cannabis law reform movement.
grammar is wone thing- facts are another, and you're wrong nana.
Duncan,
Give it up, you're just embarrassing yourself.
Must be hard work carrying that grudge around.
You didn't "prove" me wrong the first time so you won't be able to do it again. You were simply wrong about me being wrong!
Funny thing is you're making a big deal about a truly insignificant matter and yet you seem quite OK with errors in an ALCP press release.
Anyway, sticks and stones might break my bones but your words just make me .
Joined: Dec 01, 2003 Posts: 2996 Location: Christchurch, NZ
Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 11:13 am
Well I can see it might be some time before I cease smoking fags. I saw a few comments above, and right got on my bike to the shop to buy more tobacco To return home and see the most offensive post has been edited is goooood.
Indeniably there is no shortage of knockers around here, and I don't say that while looking at my bra. A great number of times I have wondered why in CLR egos sometimes take over and insight and the characteristic pot-induced thoughtfulness flies out the window
Both steveoh and potshots have energy for CLR, though in different ways. In my (at the moment NOT VERY humble) opinion there is a need for all types of support for CLR, and all should be valued as equally as possible. I see here the yin/yang appears to have been flushed down the bog.
I am struggling ever so slightly at understanding steveoh's 'I'm off somewhere else' attitude because he has espoused the same on several occasions. Likewise am struggling with potshots' eternal replies to fellow activists that - while they are constructive - are occasionally simultaneously quite deconstructive.
Thick skins are essential in this game, so lets all grow some with regards to each other. We're all different, yet essentially united by this issue. Usually I celebrate differences while subscribing to the 'learning when to say nothing is a desirable skill that many people do not achieve to any meaningful degree' AND I include myself in that.
Noone is perfect, and how friggin boring would that be anyway ? Keeping a sense of humour and a sense of perspective is important and I sure wish I could flick a few ears today.
The media release went out. Lessons learned. Onwards and upwards, FFS.
Potshot , I was suggesting being anal was at times an asset not a liability.
No offence taken Tony, I was just being a bit anal about being anal!
paula wrote:
I sure wish I could flick a few ears today.
Maybe paula is the nana of CLR .
And paula wrote:
Well I can see it might be some time before I cease smoking fags. I saw a few comments above, and right got on my bike to the shop to buy more tobacco....
Great! Not only do I have to feel guilty for steveoh's exit, I now have to feel guilty for paula buying more tobacco too.
Look's like an extra 10 minutes flagellation for me tonight .
Joking aside, good post paula .
Thought the yin-yang point was a good one. I definitely seem to be yang to a few yins (or vice versa).
And I like how you described my main fault as being too deconstructive at times rather than unconstructive. I figure it's a result of years of deconstructing all that anti-cannabis propaganda.
Duncan wrote:
but rise to the challenge potshots- answer the question posed above- prove me wrong, prove you're right. You can't can you? Pull your head in.
When I went to town earlier I called in to the ODT and checked the Sat July 26th, 2008 edition. Sure enough the "How you voted" poll result was still "Yes: 62%, No: 31% and Don't Care: 7%" just as I recalled.
Not sure how I can prove that to you but I don't really feel like I have to.
The online poll result might be different but then I wasn't talking about that one.
Joined: Feb 28, 2003 Posts: 212 Location: Auckland, Aotearoa
Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 5:38 pm
Reading this post is quite depressing. It's like a rerun of a bad tv show, stuck on endless repeat...
I don't want to go through this line by line, rebutting or commenting on every point, but Duncan: "please chill out". You're coming across as rather septic... and I don't think that's a good look for a moderator.
At the risk of reigniting old arguments, I agree with Potshots regarding the ALCP release. Spelling, grammar and being accurate are HIGHLY important. We've got to have pedantic perfectionist types among us, if only to balance the MANY airy-fairy zany crazy types we attract.
If we want Joe Public to listen to us, we've got to be timely, get to the point, make sense and sound intelligent. Sure, you can be lazy or take shortcuts on the net. Write in txt speak if you don't give a shit if anyone can read it. But a press release should be a neat and tidy work of prose, and anyone who says otherwise doesn't understand the difference between a press release and a forum post.
I think the ramblings that pass for many ALCP press releases are often worse than putting nothing out at all (Steveoh, I'm not referring to any particular press release here). Many editors and journalists think the ALCP is a joke, and prefer to come to me for concise quotes that make sense. That's the harsh truth and I'm not just saying that to blow my own trumpet. I want the ALCP to be a vital and powerful force in NZ politics. But they won't get there by doing more of the same... or by putting out press releases that actually set them back... or by endlessly criticising NORML or the Greens...
As has been noted already, members of the CLR 'movement' (myself included) can often be quick to criticise each other, but also often can't take the criticism when it's given out. We've got to get over it. Or like me accept it as part of the movement. But either way, move on and cherish and celebrate the differences. At the end of the day we're all a bunch of grumpy old buggers who think we know best. The trick is to turn our energies where it matters - prohibitionists and their allies, not attacking each other or sulking because we think we may have been slighted.
Regards,
Chris Fowlie
p.s. now it will be interesting to see if people attack me as much as potshots... haha _________________ "when injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty!"
Joined: Dec 01, 2003 Posts: 2996 Location: Christchurch, NZ
Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 6:59 pm
Dammit that steveoh and potshots have trouble communicating effectively with each other. potshots has such a firm grip on the nittygritty, while steveoh has the do-it energy to write media releases. Together they could be good.
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