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zinger
Heavy User
Joined: Jul 11, 2006
Posts: 202
Location: nz
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 LEAP talk by Judge Paradis Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 12:22 am |
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Attended a Rotary do with Jerry Paradis as speaker tonight. It was a brief but info packed issue introduction and presented perspective from Justice and law enforcement point of view. Very eye opening, but unfortunately based on US data rather than local. Message - "don't go there" was well received. To some it seemed all new, others we talked to after related it to experience and approved of the big picture overview given if not necessarily being in complete agreement on all details.
Main things of interest were:
1. big rise in US prison population and something like 88% because of possession charges! Somehow I don't think we'd be anywhere near that.
2. Pre war on drugs in America much lower drug use. Also as shown in a pretty scvandalous pie graph now the Lions share of budget (and its a mega spend) is spent on enforcement including big theft problem to fund pricey addictions, a good slice to policy review / studies etc, and bugger all to treatment and rehab.
Overall impression was of a misuse of resources for no particular benefit - by treating health isssue as crime one.
Could not quite gather if LEAP was advocating removal of prohibition for all drugs or just cannabis - tone of presentation seemed to slant toward all drugs we thought. Our members who attended came away with different views. But for the most part agreed that criminally processing especially court / jail for cannabis possession is a waste of time, and not justified.
The mid aged up crowd there was very interested and I think could have spent more time in questions / discussion. Apparently the talk went on longer than usual as the organisers thought it so good. Was quite focussed on just highlighting probs of prohibition - kept off side issues, and solutions which was unfortunate. And skirted discussion of when things go wrong. Or answer to that was basicly "well how does prohibityion help in that scenario" I think it was said that it is for communities ie local places to work out themselves if they decide to explore alternatives.
Also the membership of LEAP is huge which makes you think. |
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Durham
Regular
Joined: Mar 25, 2004
Posts: 32
Location: Macau
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| Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 1:00 am |
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I have also met a member of LEAP, Eddie Ellison, who used to be the top Drug Squad guy at Scotland Yard.
The great thing about these guys is that they ARE Establishment. People with power can relate to them and it makes it easier to swallow their message.
IMO it is a good thing that they kept the discussion (based on your comments) on the topic of the harms of Prohibition as it keeps everything on-target and means the message isn't diluted.
Let's hope guys like this can get more publicity. |
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Tony
Chronic Pothead
Joined: Oct 29, 2004
Posts: 3373
Location: NZ
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| Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 7:24 am |
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Thanks for that Zinger .
Other than Kim Hill , it seems the main stream media are not going to give the LEAP talks much coverage .
I gather a few NZ Judges have taken an interest , so I guess thats a plus.
tony |
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Neuron
Heavy User
Joined: Jul 14, 2003
Posts: 247
Location: nz
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| Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 2:42 pm |
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Yes thankyou for that Zinger - I would typically launch into a lengthy political spiel but I shall spare you and the establishment the wrath of my tongue 
Seriously, thanks for the 'report' because too many of the main-stream media will ignore this as they tend to ignore most any 'alternative' to the 'war' on people.
Regards the 'war on drugs' - just for the simple fact that 90%+ of all drug convictions/prosecutions are for cannabis means that if the 'war on cannabis' alone was ceased - even if that war on the other drugs was maintained - this would have a massive positive impact in so many area's from the justice system and peoples faith in it(including the legal profession at large), to restoring credibility in the police and fostering more community policeing, to people in general feeling like they are afforded the protections of the state rather than being 'victimised' by the state...ie restoring and recognising 'human rights'....and....fostering unity in all those communities which are divided through cannabis prohibition!
Hard drugs is a different kettle of fish - but certainly those who possess and 'use' them should not be 'caged' and 'descriminated' against and 'persecuted'. Above all....above all....there needs to be a sense of autonomy and self determination politically - that is to say, Kiwi's did not vote for, nor did they want, 'American policies in NZ'. Independance from the USA war on drugs is essential. No more USA persecutions of Kiwi's! Send the entire justice dept to the USA to look at their justice dept...the jails....the laws...the whole shebang...and then let the Kiwi law professors continue to tell us all why we must emulate the USA drug war including the huge prison population. Make no mistake - USA, land of the free, home to the world greatest prison population....is NOT a good system to replicate nor follow.
Oh shit...I did start a spiel.... |
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BudBeard
Heavy User
Joined: Oct 27, 2004
Posts: 237
Location: Dunsterdam
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| Re: LEAP talk by Judge Paradis Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 5:33 pm |
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| zinger wrote: | Attended a Rotary do with Jerry Paradis as speaker tonight....
Main things of interest were:
1. big rise in US prison population and something like 88% because of possession charges! Somehow I don't think we'd be anywhere near that.
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It is my understanding that New Zealand has the second highest prison population in the world per capita. Not sure how many are for drugs but it would be a majority.
_________________
Tick the Leaf - www.alcp.org.nz
Welcome to Dunsterdam - www.otagonorml.com
Julian Crawford - ALCP Dunedin Nth.
Liberate, Regulate, Educate. |
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zinger
Heavy User
Joined: Jul 11, 2006
Posts: 202
Location: nz
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| Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 9:04 pm |
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| Neuron wrote: | too many of the main-stream media will ignore this as they tend to ignore most any 'alternative'.
Regards the 'war on drugs' - just for the simple fact that 90%+ of all drug convictions/prosecutions are for cannabis... : |
and Budbeard said "It is my understanding that New Zealand has the second highest prison population in the world per capita. Not sure how many are for drugs but it would be a majority".
??? I don't know and would hesitate to assume - it is always better to seek out and have to hand the facts; if you want to justify your cause. It is hard to draw conlusions without some more detailed local info - I really think our stats would be much different to in the U.S.
So we have 20000 convictions - how does that compare per capita to the U.S. - I'd bet we're miles behind. Someone like Nandor just couldn't get by so easily in the States. When my cousin moved there he was advised to drop the dreads and get a squarre cut as ifn the US alternatives get grief from the cops - even with PhDs like him.
Also I thought our prisons were overloaded due to NZ's particularly violent culture not toking culture - which would have more to do with alcohol and high rates of functional illiteracy that we have here, surely.
I suspect jail is not such a typical sentence for straightforward possession here, as it likely more often is in the U.S., given their attitude to drugs and harder line on pot. I've never known any potsmoker who got jailed for it. And after all they are always trying to maintain people on the outside here with community based sentences or at worst home detention etc where possible, which is not the way of the States.
I'm inclined to think that if someone is jailed for cannabis possession here they typically had other more serious charges being dealt with at the same time, and that would have tipped the balance. It strikes me those "other charges" in the case of cannabis would not be "to fund the habit" eg related burgs. Because I know many potsmokers who've smoked for years but have never resorted to crime for dollars. I mean a foil is only the same cost as 2 pkts of ciggys after all, and buying in larger amounts reduces any strain for heavy users. Taking part in competitive sports likely costs more as habits go.
So the question arises in my mind of what is the split between pot use and Class B or A users so far as inmates who got there solely for use or associated activities. I'd imagine asociation with other (read costlier) drugs is way more often explanatory of people being "her majesties guest" in NZ.
In the absence of any hard data I'm obviously just speculating here, but the reason is that I think we need to remember we are not in the USA, so it is likely our Justice system is not a carbon copy operationally. Our lawyers and Judges are Kiwis after all, and Kiwis are generally laid back.
I'd guess discretion is used 100x more than bust tactics here, and that it is rarely used in the U.S. but not being a cop I wouldn't know. I mean its a scandal of their Pres admits to not inhaling but noone bats an eyelid if our one says she may have.
Looking at LEAPs website they are for decrim of all drugs. I think this could only work if those whose drug use was still to cause problems to others eg folk nutting out on P, were able to forced to compulsory detox and possibly treatment. There are some people whose families and the community need relief from them - and that's to do with the addiction not prohibition - hell they prolly need relief from themselves!
Right now drug addiction treatment is so low priority that a review of the 1966 Act that enables both alcohol and drug treatment orders is not set down by MoH to occur till 2012. Not reviewing this Act simultaneous to the MDA suggests the Govt is not into putting safety nets in place as intended replacements for prisons or other sentences, so its not interested in decrim.
So for now the prisons act as life saving band aids pulling back from the abyss some revolving door people... whose exacerbating hard drug use is getting close to OD level (by interrupting use), get them fit in the gym, fattened up and healthy - all ready to go back for another round on release since addiction treatment is so unavailable inside - and out. Post release though is a high risk time for OD as tolerance has gone down.
Having given this all a bit of thought since last night, I see more what you guys are jumping up and down about. I also feel that despite much smart campaigning one mostformidable thing will stand in the way of any change. I'd not underestimate the numbers of low level fat cat "pillars of the community" like lawyers or Judges and senior cops, who invest much of their taxed income to funding of the drug dealing networks and looking after the big fish who operate them.
As where else do you get such a good ROI (return on your investment) - in a local market where you have reasonable security and ability to monitor your investment. If they don't pay the agreed return - you just remove the drug lord protection from Laws long arm! I know this goes on, I believe NZers greatly underestimate the extent... and that we are no different to Australia which has had inquiries to such things. Gawd... we bred half of Ozzies top crims after all. But sadly for the legalisers perhaps... our corruption inquiries are more raunchy and sex flavoured, leaving out the drugs and rock n roll. IMO influential suits who benefit from the status quo would make decrim efforts a major push uphill.
Which scenario (if present) would also go to explain why as Neuron pointed out... that media is not accomodating exposure of speakers like Jerry and fails to give voice or debate time to the ALCP. This Govt (or the interests pulling its strings) are good at shutting down inconveniences - and has probably stooped to unprecedented lows. |
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BudBeard
Heavy User
Joined: Oct 27, 2004
Posts: 237
Location: Dunsterdam
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| Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 10:16 pm |
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Just take them out the back and shoot them fukin useless druggies
_________________
Tick the Leaf - www.alcp.org.nz
Welcome to Dunsterdam - www.otagonorml.com
Julian Crawford - ALCP Dunedin Nth.
Liberate, Regulate, Educate. |
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zinger
Heavy User
Joined: Jul 11, 2006
Posts: 202
Location: nz
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Paul13
Chronic Pothead
Joined: Nov 16, 2005
Posts: 437
Location: New Zealand
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| Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 11:46 pm |
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Thanks for the link Zinger, that article is well worth reading. |
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paula
Forum Moderator
Joined: Dec 01, 2003
Posts: 2996
Location: Christchurch, NZ
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| Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 12:35 am |
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And this today also : http://www.stuff.co.nz/4671377a11.html
Waiting lists send addicts back to life of crime
By KATIE WYLIE - The Press | Thursday, 28 August 2008
Hard-drug addicts are lapsing into lives of crime and prostitution while waiting up to eight months to access "poorly resourced and overburdened" treatment programmes, experts say.
A report from the National Addiction Centre, obtained exclusively by The Press, estimates that crime by opiate addicts awaiting treatment costs the country $286 million a year.
A 12-month course of addiction treatment with methadone costs about $5000.
Here is the late Eddie Ellison's website http://eddie.gn.apc.org/
The last figures I heard from the police. Cannabis possession charges - 46% were for possession only, the rest with other types of charges. That admission came as a result of or as part of the cannabis legal status select committee enquiry. Sorry I can't link to it.
Sorry if that doesn't make much sense either, I've been hefting around bundles of phonebooks again today, even thought I'd get an early night, but a quick look at the norml forums . . . to see potshots ripping down stevoh's media release for inaccuracies.
As well as about 6 other people it went past both me and the ALCP president last. I only checked for spelling and grammar and he didn't comply with some of my suggestions but that is insignificant beside the factual error or three that were missed  time to eat humble pie. good night ! |
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paula
Forum Moderator
Joined: Dec 01, 2003
Posts: 2996
Location: Christchurch, NZ
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| Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 12:37 am |
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ps
The Canadian judge is doing a wee talk and afternoon tea on the weekend here in Christchurch.
I will post more detail tomorrow in case any Chch readers would like to attend. |
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Durham
Regular
Joined: Mar 25, 2004
Posts: 32
Location: Macau
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| Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 1:03 am |
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Wow, I didn't know Eddie had passed away. A true loss to humanity.
RIP Eddie. |
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Thread_Killer
Chronic Pothead
Joined: Aug 20, 2006
Posts: 947
Location: h=6.626x10‾34 Mood: sisyphustic
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| Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 9:55 am |
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Some prison sentence stats from court/justice websites..
| Quote: | 1991 - A total of 289 inmates (7.6% of total) were incarcerated for drug offending. In 48% of these cases the drug involved was cannabis and in almost all of these cannabis cases, the offence was the more serious type of cannabis offence. Only four inmates were in custody because of the offence that involved the usage or possession of cannabis other than for supply.
1995 - Of the 251 (6.1%) sentenced inmates in prison for drug offending, 60% were in prison for cannabis offences and almost all of the cannabis cases involved dealing (which includes cultivation).
2003 - 448 (8.8%) sentenced inmates in prison for drug offending. |
_________________
IF 25 YEARS OF SMOKING DOPE HAS ADDLED MY BRAIN, I MUST HAVE BEEN AN INTELLECTUAL GIANT IN MY YOUTH ~Tim Shadbolt |
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paula
Forum Moderator
Joined: Dec 01, 2003
Posts: 2996
Location: Christchurch, NZ
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| Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 3:38 pm |
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Afternoon tea with the Judge
On Sunday 31st August 3.30 - 5.30
a the WEA rooms, 59 Gloucester St Christchurch. |
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paula
Forum Moderator
Joined: Dec 01, 2003
Posts: 2996
Location: Christchurch, NZ
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| AUCKLAND NEXT FRIDAY Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 12:26 am |
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here's another one:
Pro Vice-Chancellor's Winter Lecture - "Drugs and the Law", Judge Jerry Paradis
Friday Sep 12, 4:30pm – 5:30pm (NZST)
AUT city campus, Room WA220, Wellesley Street, Auckland |
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