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I don't have a negative view of christianity per se. I have a negative view of the corruption christianity, and the hypocrisy of Christianity.
I find it somewhat ironic that Ben seems to think my eyes are closed when in fact they are far more open than his. Here's a little tip for you. Debating and intellectual discussion require you to construct an argument, and support your opinions with facts and evidence to support the veracity of your claims.
Um... Ben, No where in your 3 obnoxious posts did you do that. This makes me further concerned that religion seems to opress the ability to engage in proper reasoned intellectual debate, based on fact and logic, NOT ill informed opinions. Or perhaps that just another sign of the failure of our education system.
Now if you wish to follow a moral code developed 3 years ago that's your choice and I will defend your right to choose that till the day I die. My choice to follow my own code based upon my own sound judgements and logics within the code of the laws of this nation. BUT it doesn't mean I blindly follow those laws either. If I think they might be wrong I have a moral obligation to challenge those laws and to question their efficacy. This is why we live in a society based on the rule of law - NOT a theocracy.
For your information laws change. They are fluid and dynamic as they must adapt to the requirements of the populace. Religion doesn't. Religion is fixed and inflexible and on that basis alone I cannot abide by laws founded purely in religious principle - not on objective scientific fact based on what is good for everyone. So laws that may have benefited society in the past , but do not do so now must and indeed are changed. Cannabis laws are an example of this. An example of this is changes in smoking legislation. As the scientific evidence suggests smoking is bad for people - so we have changed the laws to reflect this and outlaw smoking in work places and now bars etc. This shows the efficacy of the rule of law. Under a theocracy this would take much longer or never happen.
And to our last guest. I don't dislike religion due to meaningless routine or legalism, because they are simply facts of life - no different to work or any of the other whtings we must do because we must. I am inherently familiar with religion. What I object to about religion is in my experience, in promotes narrowmindedness and a refusal to look at certain issues on the basis of fact and objectivity, it can promote bigotry and hatred, it promotes hypocrisy, and it rejects diversity. It refuses to allow in alternative belief systems, and most of all, it locks people into a narrow moral philiosophy that in the context of history was useful 2000+ years ago. The philosophy is to narrow and restictive and simply doesn't work for me in modern society. We need spirituality without question. But the simplistic view christianity hold is at odds with my observations of spirituality in the world.
Its great that you have freedom to worship god. That after all is you freedom of choise at play and I support that. I don't believe in God as a person - its far too simplistic for me, and in some respects I feel denigrates the concept of an omnipotent being. I therefore choose to worship through following my own moral code which simply exists of one founding principle - do unto others. I give love to others so that I may receive it in kind. Its makes everything else in organised religion seem completely superflous. I'm not saying going to chuch on Sunday makes one a christian, but too many christians I've met seem to think it does.
I also am particularly anti- Destiny Church because of the behaviour I have seen of Destinty Church members. A close family friend of my partner belonged to Destinuy church and passed away last year. When his estate was to be shared all Destiny Church wanted was money - 25% of the proceeds of his house - money that rightfully belonged to his family - not the chuch. Destiny were even offered his brand new ford falcon station wagon - which they didn't want because they only wanted MONEY. Not very christian like is it??
Also at his funeral Brian and Heather Tamaki, arrived at a small urupa in Thames, in their Versace kit (completely overdressed), took no part in the ceremony and made no effort to talk to any of the people there - quite frankly disgusting behaviour and not what I would expect of people of God...
Last edited by Realist on Wed Jul 14, 2004 1:00 pm, edited 1 time in total
BTW Benny boy. Cannabis does not effect my control over my body. Never has and never will - unlike alcohol - the legalised scourge of this country. The only substance I have had problems with have been both alcohol and tobacco. Its taken me nearly 10 years to learn to control my alcohol intake and at least as long kick smoking....
Learn some real facts before you spout BS propaganda.
Whitedog lets take a look at your guess's about me..
Point one - wrong
Point two - wrong
Let me see - thats all your points
I have already looked at the benefits of medicinal marajuana, and read what's happening in places like Amsterdam and Canada. I have seen your "Living with the Enemy" episode also. So if that is what you call informed then I am.
Your posts quite clearly show you have little knowledge of:
A) The effects of Marijuana on the body short term.
B) The Effects of Marijuan on the body long term.
C) The fact that cannabis is scientifically proven to have very few health risks at all.
D) The Negative effects or prohibition.
E) the Failure of prohibition to achieve the aim of controlling or stopping cannabis consumption.
You make statements but without any scientific evidence to support your statements... If you can't stick to debating facts and make logical and factual arguments to support your case then you need to further your education so that you can do so.
Stop wasting my time with pointless drivel. If you want to debate intelligently, logically and factually, please by all means post away, but if you can't be bothered, or have the intellectual capacity to have a constructive argument that we can both learn from then please go away and learn how to. You will benefit as a person - I promise you.
Last edited by Realist on Wed Jul 14, 2004 12:57 pm, edited 1 time in total
You need to grow up and eat your veges as well as your favourites.
This is an incomplete sentence that makes no sense
Quote:
Stop being week and trying to water down the Law
No. 1.
I believe the correct spelling of "week" is weak as in lack of strength. No. 2.
Quote:
Learn to behave yourself, your a big kid now.
Missing Punctuation. It should be "you're" - an abbreviation of you are. No. 3.
Quote:
Sounds like you are what you discribe and you have achieved it without a religious upbringing! Well Done!
That would be describe with an e not an I. No. 4.
Quote:
Whitedog lets take a look at your guess's about me..
The plural of guesses does not utilise an apostrophe, as it is not shortened. You add "es" to the end of the word guess to get the plural of the verb. No. 5.
Quote:
Let me see - thats all your points
"thats" being shortened for of That is SHOULD have an apostrophe - that's. No. 6.
Quote:
Learn to read. No where did I say that I am religious. You must be confused. Weed will do that to you.
Its not weed. Its cannabis. Cannabis Sativa or Cannabis Indica. No. 7.
About 75% of your sentences contain spelling mistakes, incorrect punctuation or both. That doesn't even begin to cover the inaccuracies in content. So tell me all about your education you arrogant wanker.
If someone wants to debate cannabis laws intelligently and based on facts and evidence I'm all for it - I don't claim to know everything about cannabis, but everything I've read to date suggests cannabis laws are unworkable and do more harm than good. If someone can show me some reasonable evidence to the contrary I'm interested in it...
good lord , I come back from holiday and Destiny arse lickers are posting up a storm.
These moral retards must have a lot of time on their hands and NO faith in the destiny god to stop our sinning.
I cant wait untill the election when I will revive this thread for the sole purpose of laughing at them.
I have not read even a quarter of their rantings/posts but I would like to direspectfully point out that most of their points ( kids getting pot/pot in schools ) are happening under the system that they advocate.
Anyway I'm going outside for a big fat hooter and I urge all these destiny retards to pray like hell that I get good and stoned.
Joined: Aug 20, 2003 Posts: 52 Location: New Zealand
Posted: Wed Jul 14, 2004 11:33 pm
WHOA!!!!!! freakin happy clappers all over this forum posting 20- paragraph posts that I will never bother reading.! LOL
TO you members of DENSITY church that are trolling here.... you are sad.
I have nothing against religeon as such, all religeons have something to offer whether xtianity, buddism, ISLAM whatever....I was raised catholic myself. I believe in god and to quote King Missile "Jesus Was Way Cool" BUT I shudder and run a mile from anything culty and money-scamming like DENSHITTY Church, Scientology, Moonies, etc.
Denshitty Church is a Cult in Christian clothing. NZ is full of christian churches of all kinds. BUT any outfit that makes you sign a contract to give over "tithe' 10% of your income is a money-making scam run by crooks out to get materially rich.
And if you numbskulls can't see that then more fool you all are.
GO and join a real church for free, for cryin' out loud. you shouldn't have to pay MONEY to be in a church. Wake up to yourselves, mugs.
Jesus din't tithe his follows did he? SCUM like Tamaki give Christianity a BAD NAME.
I am the guest who wrote the following replies. I don't know who the other guests are. As far as I know they have nothing to do with Destiny Church. Their comments are not reflective of Destiny's views.
Please don't think that Destiny has made these comments. It is not our style. I only visited this website because I came across it when I did a Destiny Church search. When I read some of the comments, I felt the need to reply.
I am not going make judgements on you guys because I am really not concerned about it. I was concerned however about some of the comments on my church. I am not worried about Cannabis or who is using it. I was only worried about defending my Church. I will defend my cause like you defend yours.
So if it is OK with you guys, then lets just leave Destiny alone, because I think that we have another guest who is stirring things up. I am sure that Ben and who ever it was who posted the drugs in schools thing have nothing to do with Destiny Church.
Quote:
I am a member of Destiny Church Wellington. I have seen many peoples lifes changed for the better during the 9 month since Destiny Wellington started. I went along to see if the 'stories' about Destiny Church were true. I found a fantastic Church, that love God and God's ways and actually live by them!
If you want to make a judgement on Destiny Church, I suggest that you actually visit one first. Destiny Church wants the best for society. They are not afraid to stand up for what is right. They don't sit on the fence, afraid they might offend, instead they speak out and work towards making changes for the better. I respect that.
I am highly greatful of Destiny Church. I love being a part of it. We pray for all of New Zealand, which means we actually pray of you!
Quote:
The realist mentioned 'love the (your) neighbour as you love yourself.' This is very true. Unfortunately some people do don't actually love themselves. They treat themselves badly and as a result they sometimes struggle to treat others with love.
One of the many great things about the Bible is that it encourages us to and shows us why we should love yourselves and others. The Beatitudes in Matthew chapter 5, verses 1-7 and in Luke 6:20-23 in the Bible, in particular guide us in this. But the whole Bible is an amazing book. If you can get your hands on a Bible (one in modern English) then dust it off and take a look.
For many of us we have been brought up in 'dead' churches which have left us with the perception that God is a thing of the past and that church is for old people who are at deaths door. But God doesn't change- He is the same today as he always has been.
To all of you, who may have this perception of church and of God, find a new church. There are many churches out there that are relevant to our life’s today and are packed full of young people who love God.
According to the people God created man in his own image (Genesis 1:27 - if you want to take a look). Unfortunately man fell into sin (Gen 3). So the 'realist' is right in saying that man is an imperfect creature. And there is all the more reason why we need a personal relationship with the son of God - Jesus. He came into the earth both God and man and died a horrifying death for the forgiveness of sins. So our price as been paid, it is up to each of us with our God given free will, to choose to accept this.
Quote:
The Bible 'a single document' is actually 66 books. The realist seems to believe in God which is awesome, but has the realist thought that if God created the world is it not possible that He would supply us with the Word of God (the Bible) and be powerful enough to keep it pure and true? I believe so. I am pleased to read that the realist also comments on judgement day - which we learn about from the Bible.
Quote:
'God made man in His image.' The Bible doesn't say the same as Him.
Plus man fell into sin (Gen 3), that is where we become quite different to God - through sin.
So God is not certainly not 'dumb and a little ugly on the side.'
He is perfect.
Quote:
I am sorry to hear that you guys have such a negative view on Christianity. I understand that you may not like Religion (meaningless routine and legalisim) because I don't either.
But I do love God and His Word. I don't believe that church and Faith in God is a crutch. I go to church becuse I love worshiping God, I love the followship of other Christians (strong, good people, not like what someone else discribed earlier), and I really enjoy hearing what the Pastor talks about because it is so relievent and interesting!
Plus the music and performance are great!
I also don't just believe in God on Sundays. I follow His ways 24/7. I don't do this because I feel and have to, I do it because I enjoy it, it is so much better, and I never need to look back. Man, God is so good!
I hope you guys can understand that. Nice chating with you. If you wanta meet come to Destiny Church Wellington, Wellington High School Hall @ 10.00am or 6.30pm for an awesome surface which will blow your socks off. It's not like what you remember from your childhood years. Check it out, if you dare!
I'm the "destiny arse lickers" poster and I was meaning to put up another post because I had been a bit harsh on all christians.
I know a couple of good, decent christians and I think one or two of them may rationalise that if there is a "god" then cannabis is obviously a god given gift, perhaps to keep us away from that filthy alcohol.
But Destiny church and its ex-cop preacher have seen quite fit to put the boot into cannabis smokers in the public arena and then you "guest" come along to our site and tell us to lay of destiny church ????.
Your church is headed by an intolerant asshole who likes seeing adult cannabis users given criminal status ................. what an absolute pig of a man he must be to hold values like that.
And dont give me the spiel about how him being an ex-cop how he got to see "all the damage that pot does". Any person who cant see the damage that prohibition inflicts upon a society ( home invasions, gang tinnie networks, hard and soft drug markets intertwined etc etc etc ) is a bit thick and unquestioning.
Finally not many here would be interested in visiting a "destiny church " and observing your mob dynamics at work.
If you fail to win any seats at the next election will you take this a sign from god that your church is wrong and goes against his word ?.
To the Destiny Church Member. I have no particular issue with Christianity or the Church when people afiliated with either make the time and effort to understand and respect my view point. HOWEVER... My contempt for Destiny Church stems from the following incident:
I also am particularly anti- Destiny Church because of the behaviour I have seen of Destinty Church members. A close family friend of my partner belonged to Destinuy church and passed away last year. When his estate was to be shared all Destiny Church wanted was money - 25% of the proceeds of his house - money that rightfully belonged to his family - not the chuch. Destiny were even offered his brand new ford falcon station wagon - which they didn't want because they only wanted MONEY. Not very christian like is it??
Also at his funeral Brian and Heather Tamaki, arrived at a small urupa in Thames, in their Versace kit (completely overdressed), took no part in the ceremony and made no effort to talk to any of the people there - quite frankly disgusting behaviour and not what I would expect of people of God...
Even my GF's sister who is a Jehovah's Witness and never says anythign bad about people thinks destiny are a cult and that Tamaki speaks in tongues...
All I will say is beware the false prophet. I will not be surprised if somewhere along the line Tamaki comes a cropper... Is it not immoral in the eyes of God to profit from spreading his word... Does it not cheapen and demean the word of God when one seeks to make money from it?
If you wish to belong to Destiny - that's your call and I entirely support your choice - as you should mine. By all means I am more than happy to debate the rights and wrongs of cannabis in a civilised intelligent manner - but I do disklike Destiny church for the above reason - based on behaviours I have observed rather than any particular irrational dislike of the church or religion per se.
Hi "god Guest" I just thought that I should let you know that the head of Destiny Church is not a past ex-cop. I think that maybe you are thinking of the leader of Destiny New Zealand (the political party). I am not a member of this party.
Realist, although it is sad for your family about the estate, the person who pasted away must have felt fond of Pastor Brian and Hannah Tamaki. They do help out many people and many people are very grateful to them both. But I can understand how you would feel. I've actually been in a situation where my mother was left out of an estate. But I guess people do what they like with their money.
There are many people who leave their whole estate to a church, I guess you guys were lucky to only miss out on 25%!
sorry that I got confused about the incestuous intertwining of destiny church and the political movement .
Who are you going to vote for? ...............
Next time your at a 'service' stand up and say that the church should stop speaking out against the a) decriminilization of homosexuals/prostitutes/adult cannabis users and then see how warm and loving destinys church is .
Just stumbled across this thread.
Do you know everything anout the book they called the bible? check out the connection with sir francis bacon. type it into a search engine, don't be afraid to seek truth, how can god punish you for that?
the unconscious part of us loves the final judgment and salvation doctrine. And the church hierachy know it. That's their main draw card and chastiser. nothing has changed, it is still mutton dressed up as ham (or bacon, sir fransis that is)
We are willing to be chastised by fools if they tell us we are going to heaven. I said the sinners prayer and said it with as much conviction as I could summon and went to church for about 15 years and was shit scared when I eventually stared smoking dak, (i no longer smoke it because I want to keep my lungs healthy and dont want emphasemia) but I am not against drugs, and in a deep sense I believe they are not necessary. when I have taken or take drugs I note the effect it has on my mind and it changes the way you see things, like looking at the same thing under a different light or from a different angle, sometimes it is pleasent and sometimes it is not, but I have learned more from actual experience that just believing something because someone says it is true.
I believe it is best kept away from adolesants as it tends to amplyfy the negative (or positive) state of mind and they have enough problems to deal with, but then again I don't really know and could be totally wrong.
Prohibition is purely money driven as govt cannot derive money from it, and it becomes similar to the fruit on the tree of the knwlegde of good and evil and the temptation becomes stronger the more one is told not to do something without a fair reason why not.
There is bugger all meat in church only sedative milk for breast feeding, some people need that, fair enough, but to remain in that state once one is made aware of truth through ones own experience is foolisness.
None are so blind as those that do not wish to see.
And as far as pointing out all the good things they do, that is not a vaild argument for the uprightness of the church.
I know that anyone can show compassion and act in a self sacrificial way, like JC. Have a think about why that would be so. Infact I wouldn't be at all surprised if there were just ordinary joe or mary jane bloggs that devote their whole life to such causes not because it will give them brownie points in gods black book but because they naturally get a buzz out of doing it, let's call it dring from the river of life. I sure they are not worrying about eternal damnation for not believing in jesus as saviour. And I also feel greatly relieved from that heavy burden.
Think about what would actually make a difference in theis world. years and years of christians forcing their beliefs upon others and acting as defenders of the faith which can lead to voilence. (I have seen a few heated christian discussins in my time when the buttons get pushed). Or reading between the lines of the most twisted book in history to get an idea of who jesus actually was. and putting in to practice all the sensible things that he said and demonstrated.
Come on man, nothing has changed, the writer of ecclasticies knew that, jesus hung out with losers and liers instead of chosing to hang out at a church with "holy people"
The only way to peace is to look with in yourself and see things for what they really are, then the real miracals will happen.
It's hard to judge your self without condemnation and to learn from the experience. JC gave a few tips on how to kill the self (ego), this requires action on our part.
But personally I think it is easier to atonement fo sins doctrine.
Hope dare the christians point the finger at the moslems. The followers of yawhway supposedly murdered hundreds of thousand of men woman and children in the name of their god.
Time to wake up people.
If your sort your self out first the gates of hell will not prevail against you, jesus along with many other mystics have proved this is true.
I'm a long long long way off, but each bit of ground gained in the mad monkey mind is real and proves useful in the real and unreal world.
i always wanted to be somekind of a preacher, prophet or teacher in the church it never happened, against my own will, partly because of one prayer I made.
I want to know who you are God, please direct me in the way you would have me to go, even if it means having to discard whatever I now believe and hold dear.
I believe in something that witnesses everything but more and more it is been revealed to me that it is not what I thought it was.
Look back on your life and see how many times you came so close to death. Thats something to meditate upon.
May you all find peace within.
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